Okay, excuse me if I get a bit preachy on this. I have [URL="http://www.suidoo.com/Aspergers-and-Me"]Asperger’s Syndrome[/URL] (a type of Autism) and though I rarely speak verbally, I am extremely long winded when it comes to writing, so expect that I will do so here as well. Since you are asking about actually religious philosophy and ideas, I’ll be doing quite a bit of explaining into my religious background (both past and current) as I grew up in a “cult family” (as most people refer to them) and I think the only way for you to clearly understand how I got to where I am today if if you’ve got details into my religious background. As such, please excuse me if it seems I am going too much into detail about religious dogma stuff, I’m not attempted to convert anyone, just explain how I live my own life.
Now, I’m not going to answer you in direct “Yes or No” answers because I feel that do to the fact that there are more than 15,000 religions in the world, and a Witch may choose to belong to any one of them, that means that it would be impossible for me to give answers that would apply to every Christian Witch! So I am going to answer your questions as they apply to me in my own life, and others can choose to agree or disagree as they see fit for their own lives.
[QUOTE=Meisopomenos;3872000][FONT=Georgia]
[*][FONT=Georgia]Does one have to attend Church (any denomination) to be a Christian Witch?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
No. I don’t think do. I used to think you could not be Christian if you did not attend a Church each week, however, events in my life have opened my eyes to the fact that not every one in church is a Christian and not every Christian is in a church.
I was born a Mormon. I’ve been a Witch since 1979. For my entire life until March of 2003, I attended Church services without fail, every single one of them, which meant I was in Church on Sunday from 9AM till Noon, back again for a few hours in the evenings, back again for classes held on Tuesday nights, back again for classes held on Friday nights, and to every activity which average 3 to 4 four hour activities per month. All in all I spent roughly 2,000 hours a year in a Church building each year for 30 odd years.
Of course, my Grandmother, married into the family, and was one of the rare few non-Mormons in my family’s history. She was a Seventh Day Adventist and a Kickapoo Weather Witch. (She was a Kickapoo N.A.Indian, Animal Rights Activist, SDA extremist, and a Weather Witch). I spent approximately 6 hours a day with her, from the age of 8 till I turned 17 (the year she died). I learned much of what I do witch-wise from her. . . not her teaching me, but just me watching what she did.
I grew up in the LDS (Mormon) church. My family can trace our history all the way back to the beginning (Joesph Smith lived in Maine, before his family moved to Vermont, before they moved to New York (where he than found the gold plates, wrote the BoM, than founded the Church). When I say my family goes back to the beginning of the church, I mean the VERY beginning, BEFORE the church was founded. As such, my family has a long and sorted history with the church, and when they finally followed Smith/Young West, the rest of his followers got lumped into one group known as “The Mormon Trail”, while our family being what it was, got it’s own trail named for us: “The Atwater Trail”.
Generations of Atwaters have lived through everything in Mormon history, and ended up, becoming famous for being the strictest, most fundamental, dogma controlling family in the entire church. In areas of Utah and Maine where our family still lives, other Mormons are known to point out: “What out, there goes one of the Atwaters, they’re all crazy.” or when they see me they say “Stay away from her, she’s an Atwater, that ones a Witch you know, cross her and she’ll curse you. You’ll be dead in a week.”
You see, the Atwater family didn’t change when the Church did. The most extremist of us, are classified as Orthodox Saints by other Mormons or Mormon Christ-Pagans, by non-Mormons. I’ll explain:
For example a Mormon Christo-Pagan would be calling upon the help of Familiars (angels, faeries, spirits, God) and use seer stones (crystals), just as Joseph Smith himself had done. Like Emma Smith they use herbs and ritual chants to heal the sick. Like Smith and Young, they talk face to face with angels, Jesus, and God himself. They still use the Blessing Cloths of the Saints, just as the early Prophets of the Church did. In keeping with the pre-1979 teachings of the Church, they are farmers, living off the land, homeschooling their children, avoiding contact with Gentiles (all non-Mormons), women do not wear pants, many dress “Amish like”, do not cut their hair, and do not work in jobs outside the home, and the family keeps it’s 3 year supply well stocked. They are known as the Orthodox Latter Day Saints, living the Church’s rule to the letter as it was originally taught in the 1800’s, not as it evolved in modern times. (and yes there are polygamists in my currently living extended family as well, which explain how there can be 264 of us alive right now — and this includes one odd ball aunt who has 7 husbands — she’s a feminist and figured if the men could do it, so could she.) (On a personal note, I too am one of the odd balls of the family, I live the life of a “Catholic Nun” – virgin married to Christ, and therefor shun the practice of polygamy and the practice of sex altogether — other Mormons call me “The Jesus Freak”.)
The problem comes in when the Gentiles get baptized into the Church and bring with them their worldly sins and wicked ways, with their public schooled children, their short haired worldly women, their unbelief in physical communion with angels, their anti-Mormon ideas about using seer stones, crystals, herbs, and blessing cloths being of the devil, and their obsessions with growing wealthy, watching TV and eating meat.
As more and more of these unsaintly Gentiles got baptized into the Church, their ways started having more and more influence on the teachings of the church coming out of Salt Lake headquarters, until in 1979, the Prophet enacted countless changes, in order that the church laws would be better adapted to the lifestyles of the Gentiles joining the Church. More changes went into effect in 1983, and still more in 1997, and finally again in 2007 when they actually edited the BoM to be more politically correct!!!!
I’m old enough to remember the church before 1979. I grew up in the “Old Church” before the change, in a family that was still living the very old church ways. I grew up in the Church when it taught “Live in the world not of the world”, in a time when you could tell a Mormon on the streets from every one else, because they looked, dressed, acted, and talked VERY different from the rest of the world. It’s been 30 years since the change in the way Salt Lake Headquarters runs the Church, and now, even the former Gentiles are allowed to have leadership positions, resulting in ever more changes as each year goes by. The LDS Church is quickly, becoming a secular den of people who are no different from the rest of the world, except for a rare few who still hold on the the old ways. God does not change – people change. God did not change the lifestyle of the Saints – false doctrines of man did. Like so many churches before it, the LDS Church has strayed by the way side and fallen off the straight and narrow path, it once stood so proudly upon.
Those like myself old enough to have grown up in the Old Church, didn’t change with the new ways. They still believe in living the same way as the Smiths did: as self sufficient farmers in personal one on one communion with the Spirit world. We spend our time in spiritual pursuits, rather than rushing to college and work. Rather than trying to manipulate the world around us, we live at one with it. Unfortunately this causes problems. This causes problems because the New Converts prefer the ways of modern man over the old fashioned ways of God.
The New Converts (those members who joined the church after 1979) have their own set of modern ideals about what the Mormon Church “should be” rather than what is was as Smith created it. The New Converts are quick to call themselves “Mormons” rather than “Saints”, claiming that “No one call REALLY live the life of a Saint in this day and age.” They scoff at the old members who still call themselves “Saints” and still live the life style of a Saint. The New Convert Mormons point at the Old Member Saints and call them “Witches”, pointing out that they wear a style of clothes not seen in 200 years, that God Jesus and Angels no longer speak one on one to Church members, that using Seer Stones like Smith did is evil, that the ritual herb healings of Emma were a sham, and that being a self sufficient farmer with no TV is just plain dull and old fashioned. [I](Do they actually believe these thing? If so, why than did they join a church that teaches AGAINST what they believe? Why do they follow Smith if the things he did are thought to be so wicked and evil when done by others?)[/I]
When the finger of Witch gets pointed often enough at the same member over and over again, (as it did with me) it soon becomes a habit of all members in the Ward (what Mormons call church buildings) to single out “the Witch” and spend their time bullying, teasing, and tormenting them, until finally “The Witch” becomes an inactive member, leaving the Mormon Church, because it is no longer the church Smith started but is now a Den of Thieves. (at least that’s what happened to me.)Mormons are known for their vindictiveness towards members they claim to be Witches, and once [URL="http://www.squidoo.com/OnBeingHomeless2"]the violence got out of hand[/URL] and the [URL="http://eelkat-seawitch.blogspot.com/2009/05/harassment-of-witches-what-happened-to.html"]police had to be called in[/URL] to protect me and my immediate family from other members, I knew I no longer belonged in that church.
By doing the same things Smith did, as well as the same things done by Danial and Jaboc of the Old Testament and Jesus and the Maji of the New Testament, by dressing in garb no differeant than that worn by Jesus, I am accused of practicing Witchcraft and being a Witch and told that I have no business being in a Christian Church. Odd.
After leaving the Mormon Church, I joined a Pentecostal Church, but left after 3 years, due to the fact that they too, pointed the finger of Witchcraft at me.
After so many years of being accused of being a Witch, the “Witch” (me) now seeks out other so-called Witches and tries to join up with them, not really knowing what it is a Witch is. Unfortunately, this proves disastrous, as the other witches, are quick to point out that “The Witch” is not a Witch, but a damn Christian, with no business being a witch. And soon the bullying starts again, this time the “Witch” is now being cast out by the witches, for being “A Christian”.
Well, after that pint, I realized, I had to find out what exactly it is that a Witch actually is, and so, in 2005, I went to the library and took out 57 books (via inter library loan) about Witchcraft and read every single one of them cover to cover. (Scott Cunniham’s books were the ones I liked best.)
In the end, I realized, that yes, all these people accusing me of Witchcraft were correct, I was in fact a Witch, without ever realizing it. I also concluded that I was NOT a Wicca and had a bit of a distaste for “high ceremonial magic” rituals. I also realized that most of my style of Craft was very “Voodoo”, esp my rampant use of Jujus (Voodoo Dolls), medicine bags (gris-gris), calling up Familiars/Faeries/Angels/Saints (Icon Magick), and my dressing like most Mambas (Vodun High Priestesses).
By 2006, I came to accept the fact that I was in fact a Witch, and had been since the 1970’s (before 2006 if you called me a Witch, I would have told you I was not, because I did not realize the things I was doing was Witchcraft, at that time I had thought of Witches along the lines of “Bewitched” or “The Wizard of Oz”.) The problem now was, that though I was inf act practicing Witchcraft, I was still very much the outspoken “Jesus Freak”, which made me an outcast among other Witches, who were saying I was not a Witch because of my extreme devotion to Jesus.
By living the “I am a lily” lifestyle Jesus lived, by constantly quoteing his words as part of my daily conversation, by preaching openingly to follow Christ and obey his laws, by dressing in garb no differeant than that worn by Jesus, I am accussed of being a Jesus Freak, and told by witches as being too Christian to be a Witch and have no business practing Witchcraft. Again . . . odd.
And that in the end is what it means to me to be a Christo-Pagan: A person who is called a Witch by Christians, but a Christian by Witches. One who is too witchy to be a Christian, but too Christian to be a Witch. Thus it is not an organized religious group, but rather an umbrella title given to people who are called Witches by Christians, and called Christians by Witches, making them an outcast of both not truly accepted by either, and forced to stand on their own without any positive support from a group and no one willing to fellowship with them. And even if the Witch does have a desire to attend Church, it may not be safe to do so due to the prejudices of the Christians. Odd, isn’t that the way every one treated Jesus while he was alive too?
Wow, it only took me an hour to answer your first question! :weirdsmil Sorry about that. Told you I get long winded. I’ll try to be shorter with the rest.
[QUOTE=Meisopomenos;3872000][FONT=Georgia][*][FONT=Georgia]Can one be gay/lesbian/bi/transgender and still be a Christian Witch?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
Well, I’ve known gay/lesbian/bi/transgender Christians and I’ve known gay/lesbian/bi/transgender Witches, so I suppose one could also be a gay/lesbian/bi/transgender Christian Witch. I’ve never meet one, seeing how I’m the only Christian Witch I have ever meet personally, and I’m very straight.
I’m straight, and until about 5 years ago, had never even heard of gay or would have ever imagined that such a thing existed. (Yes, I did grow up in extreme isolation from society, I was 27 years old before I had contact with people outside of my 264 member family and the local church we attended; I guess I grew up in what people would call a “cult community”). My first confrontation with “gay” as anything other than “joyful” occurred when I escaped from my family’s weird lifestyle after I had realized that it was not normal for a family to live with all of it’s multi generations without contact with non family members. Once free from them, I committed the unspeakable sin of getting a job (I’m a female, working jobs is forbidden) and made an attempt to try to live in the “real world”. (I now look at my extended family and realize that they are living in their own little private “bubble” and have no real idea what life outside of that bubble is like at all!)
For me, life outside the family was desperately confusing: no one in the world dressed like we did, talked like we did, had the high morals we did, or acted like we did. I find myself constantly having to explain why I speak an ancient style of English (very King James Bible), why I wear the clothes I wear (not too unlike Jesus himself), why I don’t drive a car, why I don’t know how to do “normal” things like crossing a sidewalk or knowing when some one is speaking to me and I should speak back (talking at all is very rare for me) or how to do math and count money. Getting my job at Macy’s was frustrating, but I am a good learner and quickly picked up on the “clues” in people around me.
Well, my job at Macy’s confronted me with this alternate meaning of “being gay”, when one co worker whispered to me “He’s gay.” while pointing over to another co worker. Baffled at how this depressed looking man could have any joy in his heart at all, I pointed out that he was the farthest thing from happy. We both remained puzzled over each others words for a few weeks, until our boss came in one day and said he had to leave early to pickup his boyfriend. The concept of him having a boyfriend totally threw me for a loop, and my co worker explained “he’s gay”. I was deeply confused about why she kept calling these clearly unhappy non-joyful people “gay” and it occurred to her that I had no idea what she was saying to me. Explanation time, and ah-huh! I was not aware of the new alternate meaning of the word “gay” before, but once I understood that there was a second meaning, her calling people “gay” suddenly made sense to me.
So, while I admit I do not understand the concept of how any one could be attracted to a person of the same gender, I do know that this is America where one has the freedom to live whatever lifestyle you choose, so if they are not harming those around them and they are not preventing the rights of freedom from others, who am I to tell them what lifestyle they should live? I’ve long been known for my “equal rights attitude” on pretty much everything, and I’m not going to point the finger and say some one is not a Christian because they also happen to be gay.
I do however question why any one feels the need to tell anyone what type of sex life they lead. It just seems like they are boasting loudly about their sex life, because they themselves are not certain about it, otherwise why would they tell any one at all?
[QUOTE=Meisopomenos;3872000][FONT=Georgia][*][FONT=Georgia]Can one incorporate Catholic relics, statues, beliefs, without fully being Catholic and attending Mass and yet still be a Christian Witch?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
I’m not Catholic, so it’s difficult for me to answer this, however, after studying Vodun/Voodoo (during my course of studying all those Witch books mentioned earlier), I did find out one thing: You CAN NOT be a Hougan, Borka, or Mamba (Vodun priests) if you ARE NOT Catholic, as Vodun is a branch of the Catholic Church.
Not being Catholic and never personally knowing any one who is Catholic, I’m afraid I have no idea what Mass is, so I can’t comment on that part of your question at all.
However, Catholics are not the only Christians who use relics, statues, etc. Most all Christians have crosses and crucifixes and statues/pictures of Jesus. The Mormons however, do not, so I didn’t grow up using such things. Mormons view it as a grave sin to have a cross in your home, because it is a symbol of death. They say that we should focus on the Life and teachings of Christ, not on his Death.
Well, as a teenager, I saw this Blue Lace Agate cross necklace, bought it, and wore it day and night for years. In Church, I was chided by the Bishop and the leaders and teachers and constantly told I must remove it. At the end of the year, when it came time to have our Sunday School Class picture, I was not allowed to be in the picture, unless I removed the cross. I refused to remove it saying that this was America and they had no right to not allow me to be in the picture because I was wearing a cross necklace. I stood my ground, but so did they, and I was not allowed to be in the class picture, that year or any other year since.
One day, I found a tiny local shop run my Nuns and Monks from the local Catholic Monastery and Cloister. I went in. I returned home that day, with a big rosewood rosary (which I wore on my belt the way the Monk in the store did – it’s big wooden cross glaring loudly at all the Mormons in Sunday each week), a Lady of Guadaloup rosary with beads filled with Holy Water, and a pack of laminated icon cards with gold plated pictures of Jesus and winged Archangels on them (which I glued to the outside covers of my Bible and BoM). Back at the Mormon Church, I was told by the Bishop that I was an apostate for having a cross and pictures of winged angels. (Winged angels are said by the Mormon church to be a false myth created by Satan to tempt people away from God; that real angels do not have wings, and that you can tell one of God’s Angels from one of Satan’s Angels by the fact that only Satan’s angels have wings.)
I should have left the Mormon Church back than, but I was just a teenager back than, so it wasn’t really up to me wither or not I wanted to be in Church.
Anyways, though I still believe some of the teachings of the Mormon church, the evils of wing angels and owning a cross are not among them. I still have rosaries and icons, and I still use them in my spell castings and when making Jujus.
[QUOTE=Meisopomenos;3872000][FONT=Georgia][*][FONT=Georgia]How do Christian Witches view “salvation”?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
This question is difficult to answer seing how I grew up Mormon, and according the the Mormon church there is no Heaven, no Hell, and Salvation is not thought of in the same way other churches think of it.
Salvation is not often heard taught in the Mormon church. I only ever heard it mentioned in passing a couple of times. Basically, they taught that the Blood of Jesus is not what saves you, because the Blood of Jesus was what saved people who died BEFORE the Resurrection. According to them, before the Resurrection, people were cast into outer darkness as a result of Adam’s sin, and Jesus died to save them not those who came after the Resurrection. For those born after the Resurrection, we are saved by our works, which means living the teachings of Jesus and doing the things he would have done. The Church leaders get very angry if you mention the words “Salvation” or “Saved”, saying that only the lost (meaning non-Mormons) have need of those kinds of words.
So, for most of my life I had no idea what the concept of Salvation (as known to non-Mormon Christians) was.
It wasn’t until I joined up with the Pentecostals that I heard the use of the word Salvation much. The particular Pentecostal group I had joined up with were Holy Rollers “filled with the spirit”, and pretty much spent their Sundays from 9 Am until midnight, singing, dancing, speaking in tongues, rolling on the floor shouting praises, and over all acting like a bunch of crazed lunatics. At the end of it all, they’ll all run around the church, up and down each aisle, hugging each other and screaming”I’m so glad I’m Saved!” I was fascinated by these people because I had never seen anything like this before. Mormons can not even smile in Church, let alone raise their voice, and they’ll give you dirty looks if you walk faster than a snail’s pace. These people were about as opposite from the Mormons as you could get. It was from them that I learned the concept of Salvation: that Jesus died for everyone’s sins, and that by accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior you are saved.
Well, after the Pentecostals, I realized, that though I had spent all of my life in the Mormon Church, I was more of a Pentecostal at heart (though not a Holy Roller!) due to the fact that I had a very strong belief in their concept of Salvation. However, I did disagree on one point: they believed that once you had accepted Jesus, you had a one way ticket to heaven, and no matter what sin you committed from that day forth, it didn’t matter because you were saved. I disagreed with them on that point.
As for what do I personally, as a Christian Witch believe? I believe that accepting Jesus into your life is THE FIRST STEP to Salvation, not the only step, and that you must work at it your entire life, because it’s possible to fall away and sin again, and that’s what repentance is for. I don’t believe you are automatically “saved” just because you say you are, but that your works, your actions, your deeds, and your words are what will determine where you will end up after death.
I view “salvation” not as going to Heaven or escaping Hell, but as a road to guide you to your next realm of existence(or realm of glory as they say in the Mormon church). You go forward or backwards depending of how you lived your life.
I do believe in a concept of degrees of glory, much different than the 3 degrees of glory and 1 outer darkness, as the Mormon church teaches it though.
[QUOTE=Meisopomenos;3872000][FONT=Georgia][*][FONT=Georgia]How do Christian Witches view Jesus?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
Uhm . . . I think, you may already have a pretty good idea of this, based on what I’ve said already, but I’ll answer anyways.
Again, I can’t speak for every Christian Witch, only for myself. I don’t say for certain that he is the “son of God”, but I also don’t say for certain that he isn’t. When asked I say: “I don’t know. It’d be nice if he was, but it’s not going to change my opinions of him if he isn’t. Either way he was blessed; either way he was a great teacher; either way, I’ll still follow him. Someday I’ll know wither he was or not for sure, but that won’t be until the next life, so why worry about it now?”
[QUOTE=Meisopomenos;3872000][FONT=Georgia][*][FONT=Georgia]What are the morals/ethics of Christian Witches?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
Do what Jesus would do.
Harm none.*
Love one another.
Do until others as you would have them do unto you.
Pray for your enemies.
Help those in need.
[INDENT]* Harm none translates into this:
I am a vegetarian, anti-abortion, anti-war, anti-death penalty, animal & human rights activist.[/INDENT]
[QUOTE=Meisopomenos;3872000][FONT=Georgia][*][FONT=Georgia]How does one remain a Christian Witch without getting caught up in the Evangelical aspects of the faith?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
I think by Evangelical aspects that you mean, preaching to every one you meet sort of this right? The Mormon church doesn’t have evangelists, so it’s not something I ever had taught to me. I’m not sure how one would go about becoming an evangelist, or why one would want to. Fact is, I find loud mouth preachy people rude and inconsiderate and completely lacking in good breeding, manners and etiquette.
[QUOTE=Meisopomenos;3872000][FONT=Georgia][*][FONT=Georgia]How do Christian Witches view Hell?[/FONT][/QUOTE]
Being raised Mormon, I was never taught the concept of Heaven vs Hell. Instead the Church teaches that there are three degrees of glory and one place called “Outer Darkness”. God lives in the Celestial Kingdom, where Mormons who where married in the Temple go after they die. Jesus lives in the Telestial Kingdom where Mormons who did not marry in the Temple or never married at all go when they die. The Holy Spirit live in the Terrestrial Kingdom where all good people who never became Mormons go when they die. Satan lives in Outer Darkness where all the wicked shall go when they die.
I will now point out that I do not believe in this Mormon concept of Heaven vs Hell. Here is what I do believe:
I believe that the universe is filled with many places (planets?) and that each has many realms of existence, and that we live hundreds of lives, and in each life we are reborn in a different one of the realms. The entire universe is like a giant school and each realm/lifetime is one of the classrooms. A spirit realm exists in between these places, the spirits being our teachers and guides (they having already been students millinia ago). When we die we may come back in a new life as a person, an animal, or a spirit guide, or we may move on to another realm or even to another realm on another planet. There is no going forward (being rewarded) or backward (being punished) such as going to Heaven or Hell, but rather we are sent to the place where we are ready to learn our next lesson. Murderers, rapists, etc, go back to the point where they have to relearn over again things they had already been taught to get here to our Earth; Saints, good people, move on the higher levels of learning or become teachers for the rest of us. Etc, Etc, Etc.
[QUOTE=Meisopomenos;3872000][FONT=Georgia][FONT=Georgia]Sorry for all these questions, but for some reason… I had to ask.
[/FONT][/QUOTE]
Do not be sorry, I loved answering them. You helped me greatly because I’ve been needing an excuse to get these things off my chest for a long time! LOL!
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